and now it's really hit the fan...
Tue, 2007-07-10 21:45
Check out the "blog." They'd better change the name of that to something like, "place where we write what we think and nobody gets to contest it or agree with it," because, well... you now cannot leave any comments!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh, and all the comments that were posted are GONE. now, Barb and Kate, I know it's your site and you can do what you want with it, but it really makes me think poorly of you when you won't allow normal conversation to ensue regarding your posts. You put it out there in public for us to read but now are afraid of what might be said about it. It really irks me to think of how much time I spent (and others spent) writing out LOGICAL, FACTUAL, NON-INFLAMMATORY responses. If you want to delete posts, then delete those that actually hurled insults at formula-feeding moms. Your "announcement" on the forum states, "messages that are deemed inappropriate -- such as messages that harass, insult, abuse or threaten other members, or have obscene or otherwise objectionable content" - and so I guess most of those comments were removed for the vague reason of, "otherwise objectionable content," since only a few of them actually insulted other people.
songbh, did you by chance copy all of the comments on the blog?
I guess we'll just have to stop reading the blog, or start threads here to comment on each blog entry.
At least we got in good informative comments that undoubtabl;y have been read by MANY people, so it was not all in vain.
If the point of this site wasn't clear before, well, it surely has been made clear by these most recent actions.
Tue, 2007-07-10 22:55
#2
and now it's really hit the fan...
All the deleted blog posts are now available on www.banthebags.org
Wed, 2007-07-11 09:29
#3
and now it's really hit the fan...
Very good! Here's a direct link to the page so that people can get to it for future reference: http://banthebags.org/?p=68
Hmm, I wonder if we should copy and paste all the comments into this forum???
Wed, 2007-07-11 15:34
#4
and now it's really hit the fan...
Wow, things sure have changed around here!
And my thread called "I formula fed my son" seems to be gone.
The gist of it was this: I hated formula feeding, and if I had a better, more breastfeeding-supportive environment when he was born, he would have never had a drop.
Wed, 2007-07-11 20:56
#5
and now it's really hit the fan...
Dear Wonderwall, Erin and all those other Ban the BAgs aficionados... GIVE ME A BREAK! All this preaching about censorship and having your posts deleted and not being able to respond to Blog entries here any more. Wellll, where is that option on the banthebags site I might ask? NO Forum on that site, no comments allowed on blogs there, and very careful screening of even the posts from this site that you all got posted there!!
If you want a frank open discussion and actually/sincerely are interested in others' views on the whole breast vs. bottle discussion then why don't you talk your friends at BantheBags into adding that feature? We all know the answer -- it's because you don't want to even consider a different perspective than yours and you want to use a site like this to spread your story of guilt and fear. I've now read your posts, and you have been trying to dominate this forum and overwhelm what I call the silent majority -- people like myself who formula feed their baby and are proud of it! But the difference is I respect your decision -- breastfeeding is great for those Moms who choose it but it's not the end-all. And no it should not be mandated and forced on Moms, which we all know are your true intentions.
You and other breastfeeding zealots like you are really just breastfeeding bullies. And the way you had a feeding frenzy on this forum proves it.
Wed, 2007-07-11 21:23
#6
and now it's really hit the fan...
andrea, comparing the banthebags.org website and this formula-funded website isn't even like comparing apples and oranges. It's like comparing a koala bear to King Kong. Websites cost money. The formula industry has essentially limitless funds to promote its product. Breastfeeding advocacy has almost no money. The Ban the Bags campaign, to the best of my knowledge, is driven entirely by volunteer labor and donations. Kate and Barb (who write and control this website) are paid to do so by the formula industry. They don't write the blog entries and and moderate these forums in their spare time -- they are paid to do it. And the cost of the server space and bandwidth to operate this website doesn't come out of their own pocket.
You surely noticed that the banthebags.org website has a place to sign up to join a yahoo group, which functions as mailing list. Anyone can sign up and anyone can post anything. Yes, the group is moderated, but to my knowledge that moderation has never been heavy-handed. Certainly it would be impossible to "disappear" entire threads on a mailing list, because the messages go out to everyone on the list instantaneously.
Frankly, andrea, I am really disappointed with the hostile and insulting tone that you take in your post above. The previous thread in which you posted your concerns and discussed with me and Erin some of the cultural aspects of breastfeeding ended on a positive note (before it was censored). You wrote that you were pleased that we had responded to you with civility and heard your concerns. Now you are calling us "bullies" and accuse us of spreading "guilt and fear" and of wanting to FORCE mothers to breastfeed. What's up with that??
Wed, 2007-07-11 21:36
#7
and now it's really hit the fan...
And I thought the last time we spoke we were having a nice conversation, Andrea.
Truthfully, I rarely visit banthebags.org. If I did, I wouldn't have had to read on *this* site's forums that the blog comments were now available there, right? I visit this site because I see that has been set up merely to create conflict - it is trying to take the focus off the formula samples in hospitals and instead pit mothers against each other. Banthebags.org, from what I can see from the parts I have read, is more about giving flat-out information rather than opinions. Nearly every blog post here was just Kate or Barb's opinion and only a few were related to something that was a timely news event. Banthebags seems to post blog updates mostly regarding what is happening on the formula samples front - which is the purpose of their site, to ban the formula samples that hospitals are paid to hand out. THAT is the issue, and this website purports to exist in order to support keeping the sample bags in hospitals. But that is clearly not what most of the info on this site is related to. They claim to have one purpose, but while using that purpose (and this is "using" in a bad way) to throw in fighting words and defray our attention from the real issue. Banthebags sticks to its intended issue, from what I have read.
This is about the formula marketing in hospitals - that is all this is supposed to be about. This is not about picking on individuals for formula-feeding. If you think it is, then the authors of this website have achieved their twisted goal with you. They know they can create animosity between breastfeeders and formula feeders, and that is their real intent, all in the guise of promoting free choice.
You make many assumptions here as well, like when you write, "We all know the answer -- it's because you don't want to even consider a different perspective than yours and you want to use a site like this to spread your story of guilt and fear," and "And no it should not be mandated and forced on Moms, which we all know are your true intentions." You can assume all you want, saying "we know" as if what you say is fact, but it doesn't make it so. Each person knows why they visit this site and post to it, and nobody else knows what is on the other posters' hearts. I will state my intentions here right now (which I think I have stated before, but maybe not quite so plainly): I am posting here for two main reasons; First, to show why the formula marketing in hospitals is unethical and detrimental as well as the fact that this site does very little to support its claimed purpose but instead uses emotion to try to stir up controversy between mothers; Second, to clear up breastfeeding misconceptions that may come up here. So, choose to believe it or not, but that is truly why I am here. It is *not* to make fun of formula feeders and talk about how bad they are or to advocate for legislation forcing them to breastfeed.
One other comment on this quote of yours: "you have been trying to dominate this forum and overwhelm what I call the silent majority -- people like myself who formula feed their baby and are proud of it!" How exactly is posting on a forum "dominating" it? Are the people who "formula-feed and are proud of it" somehow not able to post as much or as often here? If this is really about "freedom," well, don't they have the same freedom I do to post what they wish on this site? You say there is a "silent majority." So, why are they so silent? Because somehow the breastfeeding advocates are silencing them? They are all afraid to post for some reason? Their posts are being intercepted and deleted? I think not. If they want to speak up, they can do so, and I would welcome the discussion. If they don't want to speak up... well, maybe there are not as many of them here as you think... why else wouldn't they speak up?
You've decided that being passionate about something, while having respectful discussions (as most of them are), somehow "proves" that we are bullies and zealots. I won't say it proves anything, but it leads me to feel that you are not all that respectful yourself when you use those kinds of insults. I wonder if the terms of use will consider those terms as being insults? I have certainly not called you (or anyone else) any kind of name. I thought you, songbh, and I were having a good discussion earlier, with no name-calling and blaming others.
Nobody here is spreading guilt - guilt is an emotion that comes from within. Nobody else can "make" somebody feel guilty - if they can, then you're giving them waaaay too much power over you. If you know your own choices and actions and are totally comfortable with them, then there's no reason to have guilt. Yes, people can make comments designed to make others feel guilty, like if somebody said, "If you really cared about your child's health, you wouldn't formula-feed," or, "You're starving your baby by breastfeeding him; why not get over yourself and use formula?" It certainly isn't kind to make those types of comments. But unfortunately, many people perceive the sharing of facts as trying to induce guilt in others. By saying, "Breastfed babies are statistically less likely to be sick than formula fed babies," that is just sharing a fact, the same as it is sharing a fact by saying, "Watching TV may be harmful to a child's brain development at early ages." Well, my 2 year old has watched some TV, but if somebody else made this statement to me, I would not think they were trying to make me feel guilty, but rather to share info with me. It has become non-PC to share facts if those facts have the potential to make somebody else feel bad, apparently.
So, I invite discussion to continue here, but let's keep it to the real issue at hand and leave out the name-calling. Remember that the authors of this site are succeeding when mothers are at each other's throats. I have nothing personal against the formula-feeding moms on this site and hope to be afforded the same opinion from them. When we make it personal and get mad, that is when the attention is defrayed from the real issue: the formula marketing in hospitals.
(Edited for clarification)
Thu, 2007-07-12 00:46
#8
and now it's really hit the fan...
songbh, erin: what can I say? you all are exhausting! I'm so glad you have such a passion, a conviction, on this topic -- too many people are passive about important societal issues -- but you just can't make everything so black and white to make your points. I do sincerely apologize for single-ing (sp?) you out for the "venom" and insults on this forum. You're right, I can't find any one specific direct insult from either one of you -- and I got caught up in the emotion of it all. It's just the whole undertone and the force and relentlessness with which you speak/post. It seems like you want the last word on every point made that you don't agree with.
So poor poor ban the bags website is w/o money and relies on volunteers? Come on, webscripts for chat rooms and message boards are a dime a dozen. The ban-the-bag website is controlling the message they're sending out as much as this site is. Even more so cuz I could never write all this on their site! And they only report "facts" you say? That kind of statement is your emotion speaking -- they are not All Good and the formula cos. are All Bad. Case in point: we talked on an earlier thread about the use of the phrase, "unhealthy product", on their flyer when referring to formula. An absolute untruth, not based in science, and an outrageous (but yes indirect) insult!
And yes Erin, I do think you're trying to "squeeze out" any comments that are not pro-breastfeeding under the guise of (as you say) "clearing up breastfeeding misconceptions." Don't blame that on this website. And let's talk about guilt a minute here. Yes, I agree, one can't MAKE someone feel guilty -- but one can certainly try. Witness again the "unhealthy product" phrase, and tell me -- did I just happen to miss it? -- where is the section on the ban the bags website about "the proper role of infant formula" or "baby formula -- the acceptable alternative"??!
And one more point, which I'll end this post on before you can accuse me of being "overwhelming"!... a point that you both keep trying to push us back to -- about the bags. You both seem to feel quite strongly that the formula samples are a huge factor in the decision to use formula, either right away after leaving the hospital or later on, shortening the duration of breastfeeding. Is it as major a factor as when a new mother returns to work and finds it difficult to continue breastfeeding (due to lack of support etc.)? Is there research that supports the "bags are evil" conclusion or are you simply basing it on experience, logic, or some inbred distrust of corporate America and the "manipulation of the mind" by commercial promotions and marketing? The real venom coming out of your posts is directed at industry as far as I can see, but are you absolutely sure that you hate formula marketing and NOT formula itself (that "unhealthy product" in the minds of so many breastfeeding zealots)?
We're probably going to have our posts deleted because we're displaying too much emotion or something, but thanks for listening -- and I sincerely hope we can continue this discussion on the ban the bags website soon!
Thu, 2007-07-12 07:32
#9
and now it's really hit the fan...
I'd like to interject some data into the debate re. marketing bags in hospitals: A scientific review of 11 randomized controlled trials conducted in multiple countries concluded that formula marketing bags cause women who intend to breastfeed to start using formula earlier. Another randomized controlled trial of formula materials vs. non-commercial materials at the first prenatal visit caused women who were uncertain about how long they wanted to breastfeed to wean 30 days earlier than women who received non-commercial information.
Randomized trials are the best quality information that is available to make medical decisions. Based on these high-quality studies, numerous physician and public health groups, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology, the CDC, the American Public Health Association, and the World Health Organization explicitly oppose hospital-based marketing of infant formula.
Physicians take an oath to "first, do no harm," when caring for patients. These data provide strong evidence that formula marketing materials harm mothers and babies who desire to breastfeed. By contrast, I know of no data that mothers who desire to formula feed suffer harm when they do not receive marketing materials in the hospital. All women have access to free formula samples by dialing the 1-800 number printed on every can of commercial formula. They can sign up for formula coupon clubs using tear-off cards in every baby and parenting magazine. They can join formula clubs on the web with the click of a mouse.
So, if hospitals wish to "first, do no harm," should they engage in a practice that undermines women who attempt to breastfeed, with no benefit to those who wish to formula feed? Even if formula feeding were not associated with increased risks of acute and chronic disease for infants, the ethical answer is clear: formula marketing does not belong in hospitals and doctors offices, period.
Thu, 2007-07-12 09:45
#10
and now it's really hit the fan...
Thank you Alison for discussing the studies. Andrea, *that* is the purpose of the banthebags site. its purpose is to give info related to the formula samples being marketed in hospitals. This site, on the other hand, says its purpose is to oppose that campaign while also being a place for women to discuss feeding choices... and they know the second part of that will detract from the real issue of the samples. Also, I don't think banthebags made that flyer with the "unhealthy" comment... I believe that was the MA Breastfeeding Coalition - somebody correct me if I am wrong. So your real issue is with them. We have already agreed that the wording would be better as "less healthy" - so see, everything is not "black and white" in our minds as you said, if we agree with you that the wording should be different on that flier.
This quote from you: "And yes Erin, I do think you're trying to "squeeze out" any comments that are not pro-breastfeeding under the guise of (as you say) "clearing up breastfeeding misconceptions." Don't blame that on this website. And let's talk about guilt a minute here. Yes, I agree, one can't MAKE someone feel guilty -- but one can certainly try. Witness again the "unhealthy product" phrase, and tell me -- did I just happen to miss it? -- where is the section on the ban the bags website about "the proper role of infant formula" or "baby formula -- the acceptable alternative"??!"
I am sorry that you don't believe me fully, it seems. I am not trying to "squeeze out" any formula info as long as it is accurate. If somebody wants to start a thread on how to properly prepare a bottle of formula, then I'm not going to comment on it unless somebody gives misinformation, say, suggesting to put rice cereal in the bottle of a 2 month old to help it sleep longer stretches. If somebody wants to start a thread debating which brand of formula is best, then they should do so - I won't comment since I honestly don't know or have an opinion on which brand is best. And, I have already said in numerous places on this site that I agree that women with physical problems with low or no supply are doing right by using formula - I didn't try to make that black and white, as in "you either breastfeed or not." I know that some women cannot, and I know that some women have other influences that make formula the right decision for them. Maybe those factors could be worked around and maybe they couldn't - but they are there in some cases. So really, I am not trying to get rid of people's opinions when I clear up a breastfeeding misconception. And I don't mind if you clear up misconceptions about formula that may come up. Yes, that flyer may have been trying to make moms feel guilty by saying "unhealthy" - and if so, that is wrong of them. But even if they are trying to make somebody feel guilty, then they shouldn't be given that kind of power over anyone. If it is something that bothers enough people, perhaps they will get enough negative feedback on it and change it. Tell you what, if you write to them and tell them you'd like it changed from "unhealthy" to "less healthy," then I'll do the same, okay? Just find their contact info and post it here.
You wrote, "where is the section on the ban the bags website about "the proper role of infant formula" or "baby formula -- the acceptable alternative"??!"
Ban the bags is not about comparing infant feeding choices - it is about banning the formula marketing in hospitals. Therefore, there is no reason for them to have this info on their site. Their purpose is not to debate breast vs formula or to discuss feeding options - it's just about banning the bags, and that's all. It doesn't even have anything (as far as I have looked) that is about breastfeeding in any other way - no news blurbs about nursing in public legislation, nothing about the benefits of breastmilk other than what you may find in the links they provide to AAP and LLL.
You said, "Is there research that supports the "bags are evil" conclusion or are you simply basing it on experience, logic, or some inbred distrust of corporate America and the "manipulation of the mind" by commercial promotions and marketing? The real venom coming out of your posts is directed at industry as far as I can see, but are you absolutely sure that you hate formula marketing and NOT formula itself (that "unhealthy product" in the minds of so many breastfeeding zealots)?"
Alison answered this one very well in her reply above. And no, I do not hate formula - think about that... if I hated formula and wanted it to not exist, then wouldn't I be condemning some babies to death? Those babies who have to have formula because their mother dies, or because their mother has tried and is unable to pump enough milk and has to be away from her baby... I cannot hate formula itself, because it definitely has its place, and it is *crucial* for some babies like in these cases. And there is certainly not an overabundance of milk banks, so formula is needed urgently - life and death - for some babies. So yes, it is just the formula marketing in hospitals that I oppose. And I really don't even have much of a problem with the marketing on American TV... it is the hospital marketing that I want to stop. And I don't even "hate" the marketing - I strongly oppose it.
Edited to add:
I meant to also respond to this quote: "It's just the whole undertone and the force and relentlessness with which you speak/post. It seems like you want the last word on every point made that you don't agree with."
First, I have to say that I can see how maybe my posts seem forceful and overpowering because I write so much... it is just my writing style. I do not have the gift of conciseness in writing and never have... it takes me a lot of paper to write what I am trying to communicate. I was always one of those kids in school who had no problem coming up with the 500 words or 4 pages necessary to meet the requirement when writing a paper, lol! So, if it looks like i'm trying to dominate with long posts, believe me, I just write this way no matter what the topic. I admire the people who can get their points out briefly yet completely! So, I do not want the last word on things... I do respond a lot because this is one of the few sites I visit frequently. I have cut down the sites I visit lately so that I can spend more time on other things, so a big chunk of my online time is spent here (I only visit 3 other sites regularly, only one of which is set up where I can submit things and reply to posts like this one is). So I do want to respond, yes - but if I get the last word before everything has been said, what fun is that? If nobody responds to me, then I cannot respond again to them, and the conversation dies. And everyone else who visits this site has the same opportunity to reply as often as they wish... there's not a set number of posts that can come through, so I don't think anyone can dominate the forum unless nobody else replies. And some of us are passionate about things, and as you said before, that's not a bad thing... better than not caring about anything at all. But that's why I post here frequently. And again, I have been long-winded... I need to hire somebody to write summaries for me ;)
Thu, 2007-07-12 17:37
#11
and now it's really hit the fan...
andrea wrote:
Dear Wonderwall, Erin and all those other Ban the BAgs aficionados... GIVE ME A BREAK! All this preaching about censorship and having your posts deleted and not being able to respond to Blog entries here any more. Wellll, where is that option on the banthebags site I might ask? NO Forum on that site, no comments allowed on blogs there, and very careful screening of even the posts from this site that you all got posted there!!
You know, I just think it's disgusting that a formula company has to hire public relations people just to make formula feeders think this issue is about their "right". IT'S NOT! It's about the fact that formula companies wine and dine hospital execs so that it will be their PRODUCT sample given to you when you have a baby. You are esentially becoming a pawn in the war between formula companies for the biggest market share.
If you had bothered to read my original thread, you would have heard that I wish a formula company existed that had the health & wellbeing of my baby at heart. I was forced to formula feed and I did NOT enjoy the fact that so many of my hard earned dollars went towards a company that goes against the WHO guidelines so that they can make money.
To everyone else:
I'm reminding myself that for every one person that gets riled up over what we've said enough to come here and tell us that, there are probably ten that have read and said "you know, she makes a good point. Even if I choose to formula feed, my hospital shouldn't be helping to market to me!"
Some people think formula feeding sucks. Some people think breastfeeding sucks. No matter what they may want us to believe, it's not about that! It's about marketing in hospitals. And there should NOT be marketing in hospitals. Period.
Thu, 2007-07-12 20:00
#12
and now it's really hit the fan...
The samples are also a huge rip-off for formula feeding moms. First, consider that hospitals don't hand out samples of Costco formula -- they give out the priciest brand name products. According to a U.S. Department of Agriculture study ( http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/fanrr39-1/ ) these brand-name formulas cost 66% more than store-brand generics. But when a doctor or nurse promotes the expensive stuff, mothers tend to stick with it, assuming that's it's better for their baby, because it was endorsed by a health care provider. That leads to hundreds of dollars in added costs over the next 12 months.
Furthermore, the samples are not "free." They are paid for by the families who buy formula. The pharmaceutical companies that make the major brands of formula -- Enfamil and Similac -- spend 1/4 of their revenue on marketing (See Bristol-Myers-Squibb annual report: http://thomson.mobular.net/thomson/7/2218/2442/ ). So for every dollar that a mother spends on formula, $0.25 is going to pay for marketing -- including those "free gifts" at the hospital.
Much of that money goes to wining and dining doctors and nurses to promote branded formula. As a training manual for Ross Pediatrics put it, “Never underestimate the importance of nurses. If they are sold and serviced properly, they can be strong allies. A nurse who supports Ross is like an extra salesperson." (Abbott Labs v. Segura, 1995) If you buy infant formula, your hard-earned dollars are going to pay for "selling and servicing" of nurses and doctors, as well as PR firms like the ones that are orchestrating this web site.
Formula companies aren't charities -- they are publically traded companies. They have an obligation to their shareholders to make sure that any money they spend reaps profits. To do this, they have a two-pronged strategy: Make sure every formula-feeding mom buys their product, and make sure moms who want to breastfeed start supplementing as soon as possible. Every time a mother puts a baby to breast, the formula industry loses a sale.
This is marketing 101 -- CocaCola doesn't spend money encouraging people to drink Pepsi, and formula companies don't spend money helping mothers to breastfeed. It's bad for business.
Hospitals, on the other hand, are supposed to be acting in the interest of mothers and babies. That means using evidence-based medical information to support mothers and infants, not pitching high-priced infant formula. And that's why formula marketing should stay out of doctors' offices and hospitals. Hospitals should market health, and nothing else.
And this statement, found at the top of the forum, sure isn't truthful:
"A place to discuss your infant feeding choices and experiences. This forum is intended to be a safe and open exchange of information and opinions, where you can share your experiences and views about infant feeding choices and infant nutrition."
Oh, really? As long as that feeding choice isn't exclusive breastfeeding and the infant nutrition info is only that provided by formula companies?
And I don't expect these comments to stay here long - I am feeling a little snarky over this.